Talk:Abbasid Caliphate

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Neutral wording?[edit]

"temporarily converting to Shia Islam and joining their fight against the unjust Umayyad rule" [my emphasis] is this some kind of partisan comment on an old secterian muslim conflict. seems like it might be one.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.177.138.109 (talk) 20:25, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Umar[edit]

The Umayyads were not descended from Umar. I have corrected that claim.

DigiBullet 09:45, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It is correct that Umar (Omar) is not the first ancestor of Umayyads however, he was belonging to that linage. And is the first Umayyad Caliph. In view of this fact one may consider that Umayyads descended from Umar. Umar and Uthman these two Rashiduns belonged to Umayyad descendency. But as they were included on the higher rank as Rashiduns; they were not considered as Umayaads. Pathare Prabhu (talk) 06:25, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

the Sack of Baghdad: February 28 or February 10 ?[edit]

The Wikipage on Baghdad shows February 10, 1258, instead of February 28, as the date of the sack of Baghdad. Can anyone confirm this, please ? -- PFHLai 05:51, 2005 Feb 7 (UTC)

This site has all the dates:

http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/sources/baghdad.htm

Hard to figure out exact date since it apparently went on (including initial negations) for a month or more OneGuy 09:53, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)


Thanks for the reference, OneGuy. I can't find any mention of Feb.28th. And I quote:
... the caliph and his three sons, Abu'1-Fadl Abdul-Rahman, Abu'l-Abbas Ahmad, and Abu'l-Managib Mubarak, came out on Sunday the 4th of Safar 656 [February 10, 1258]. With him were three thousand sayyids, imams, cadis, grandees and dignitaries of the city. ... The people disarmed themselves and came out in droves, and the Mongols killed them....
I suppose this means February 10, 1258 was the date Baghdad fell to the Mongols. I'll edit the article accordingly.
...At the end of the day on Wednesday the 14th of Safar 656 [February 20, 1258], the caliph, his eldest son, and five of his attendants were executed in the village of Waqaf...."
I'll add this date of the execution of the last reigning Abbasid caliphate in Baghdad (February 20, 1258) to the article.
Thanks, again. :-) -- PFHLai 18:31, 2005 Feb 7 (UTC)

Sometimes February 12th is mentioned. Information service (talk) 06:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"Second Class Citizens"[edit]

The concept of the "citizen" didn't emerge until the French Revolution, therefore no one was a second class citizen because there was no such thing as a citizen. Someone should fix this, because I'm too busy to think of a better way to reword this, but if no one changes it by weekend, I'll fix it up. Canadian Paul 07:07, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Ancient Rome had a developed sense of citizenship. - Bryan is Bantman 02:15, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

It's arguable I guess, after over half a year of learning about things since I last posted the comment... anyhow, I think I fixed in such a way that it works for either view point - Canadian Paul 20:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Persians,

Would you ppl stop adding Persian crap to this page, as in "three Persians, Al-Kindi, Al-farabi..."

Would you please research before you add stuff, yes al farabi was persian, but al kindi and ibn sina (avicenna) were arabs.

  alkindi was arab but ibn sina was persian, alfarabi was either a persian or turk.  Nevertheless, the question of ethnic origin is quite pointless, since they these three belonged to the same cultural and intellectual realm and most if not all their works were written in arabic (the de facto language at that time)

BBC Podcast about Abbasid Caliphate[edit]

MP3. Jacoplane 20:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to move this to the main article page. If there are any objections, post them here and we'll discuss. Rob cowie 13:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


Bold textAl-Mu'tasim's Last Remaining Son"Bold text

It says in the article that al-mu'tasim, the last abbasid caliph, had his last son and daughter sent to hulegu's harem as a slave and a concubine. Which is totally untrue. How could his last son be sent to Azerbaijan (hulegu's stronghold), then reappearing in Cairo to restore his dynasty?!! Al-Mustasim's son was somewhere in a desert town, I read, when Baghdad was sacked, and kept roaming the desert in fear of his life, until the mongols were defeated at Ayn Jalut, then he travelled to Cairo in Egypt, to meet Sultan Baibars Al-Banduqdari, and be restored as a figurehead caliph. May someone please edit the article concerning this matter. Everytime I edit it, my edit is scrubbed out.

It was not his son but his uncle who re-established the Caliphate. Al-Mustasim's several sons fled to different countries. The Syrian line spread itself and gained importance. Emirs Ruslan and Iskander belong to it. Information service (talk) 06:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Abu Muslim[edit]

Shouldn't there be a reference in here about Abu Muslim, who is usually credited with bringing the abassids to power?


Haroon Al-Rashid[edit]

Being among some of the greatest rulers of Abbasid and Islamic rule shouldnt a seperate category be made for his rule in the Caliphite?


Why is this...[edit]

Why is this "Caliphate" considered Shia? It imprisoned and persecuted the Shia Imams and it imprisoned and persecuted Shia in general. Armyrifle 10:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

It is not Shia, it is Sunni. Information service (talk) 07:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Persians/Spuler[edit]

I have had trouble finding in Spuler the quotation about the Persians given in the text and footnoted at footnote 4. I have a different edition of Spuler but have searched pretty extensively through it. Could there be an error here?86.136.74.2 12:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Iranica link[edit]

This link:

Was added by a Columbia University IP along with many other links to the site. I have moved it hear in keeping with our external links guidelines so unconnected editors can evaluate its appropriateness. Many of the website's entries are short and may not contain much more than the articles they have been added to. However, this might be a good source even if editors do not consider it an appropriate external link. -- SiobhanHansa 01:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Iranica is produced by Columbia University and like Encyclopedia Britannica is a scholarly source. It should not be removed from the articles as they are pertinent sources of reference.--Zereshk 13:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Stop your nonesense war[edit]

Why do you (Iranian Wikipedians) keep adding the irrelevant texts to articles on Wikipedia?, that thing will -NOT- make Iran a greater country, i can see many articles that the name (Persia) is shoved in and you keep mentioning (Persia= Iran today don't forget)!, i call that a childish edits and will make people suspicious of articles related to Iran. can you tell me what's good for the article to add "It is well established that the Abbasid caliphs modeled their administration on that of the Sassanids.[4] One Abbasid caliph is even quoted as saying:


"The Persians ruled for a thousand years and did not need us Arabs even for a day. We have been ruling them for one or two centuries and cannot do without them for an hour."[5]"

it is completely racist and does not help -at least- the section of Abbasid Science, I hope you guys understand me--Zobiez 23:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

"I don't like it" is not a valid reason to remove relevant sourced information about who caliphs modeled their administration on, and their influences......I agree what he is saying .--Piroozi 03:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)



is that what you understood! you look so clever, the section is about ABBASID SCIENCE not about the administration. now your racist admin Khoikhoi blocked me and accused me of being a sock puppet of User:Islami, i dont know what me and Islami have together we edit different articles we are different people we have different IP's, can i have any evidence that explain my block on the nick User:Tinglepal??, he wants to silence me but i will stand for the truth--Creativiti 09:08, 15 July 2007 (UTC) Meh

editprotected[edit]

A protection template should be applied to this page for the duration of its protection. Thanx, 68.39.174.238 18:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I've added a small template, top right. — Gareth Hughes 19:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


Stop the manipulation[edit]

I removed the racist sentences mentioned in the article...since this has nothing to do with truth...it was never said...& I'm getting sick of all Persian shit put on ALL Arabic-related articles...Exactly all Arabic articles on wikipedia...its very annoying, they're making everything Arabic as Persian manipulating history, names & facts....Does any Arab manipulate anything on Iran-related articles...No....its only persians doing that...in the Iran article they even jump over certain parts of the history related to ruling of persia by Arabs, its so biased in the way they not only manipulate but also write things that serve their persian nationalism & if we would search & analyze about Iran as a whole the majority of it has Arabic origin & yet Arabs don't do it....So stop with this persian nationalistic propaganda..stop putting your shit everywhere!!!!!! Iraswe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.6.158.33 (talk) 00:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The Abbasids came to power by pandering to the non-Arab converts and they moved their capital to Baghdad (a Persian name), which is only 20 km away from Cteisphon, I believe. I think it's fairly obvious the Abbasid Caliphate was highly persianized... The majority of the thinkers in Baghdad were of Persian ethnicity. Iran has a majority of Arab origin? Based on what? Genetic testing doesn't suggest that at all; Only certain cities (Qom, for example) were founded by Arabs. The Arabs in Southwestern Iran didn't even arrive into that region until relatively recently (a few hundred years... they have not been living there since Islamic conquest). Nor does the historical reality. As for "Arabic identity dominates Iran." Can you name a single contribution the Arabs have made to Islamic architecture beyond calligraphy? Did they come up with double skinned domes? Pointed arches? Minarets? The landscaping? Right. The original Arabs were living in tents. So let's not start with the nonsense that Iranians have "Arabic origin." It makes no sense genetically. It makes even less sense culturally. The Ummayads were Arab in essentially every way, but to lay a claim on all of the science, culture and knowledge that was generated during the Abbasid period is nonsense. The CAPITAL CITY of the Abbasid Caliphate was predominantly Persian. Baghdad did not become Arabized until the Ottoman Empire. Rhazes, Khwarizmi, Avicenna, Biruni, Tusi etc. were all Persians. As for the Iran-article.. That's irrelevent to this article, for one. Two, the Iran article does mention almost 10 paragraphs on the Arabs, the Turks, and the Mongols. I don't really understand where the "nationalist Persian propaganda is." Ignoring the Persian component of the Abbasids would be similar to ignoring the Greek component of Rome. The entire reason there WAS a golden age was because works of non-Arabs were translated into Arabic. Not because the Arabs themselves started something on their own. I think leaving out that little factoid would qualify as Pan-Arab nationalism, not Persian nationalism. -68.43.58.42 (talk) 07:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Really hate having to look dumb pointing this out, 5 years later, but oh well, the user from the IP above seems to spend all his time contributing to articles about "Race and Intelligence" and scientific racism. Maybe I'm just jumping to conclusions, but coupling stuff like that with phrases such as "The entire reason there WAS a golden age was because works of non-Arabs were translated..." and "The original Arabs were living in tents" strikes me as a bit, uh, hypocritical for someone trying to carefully denounce claims of Persian nationalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.153.191.120 (talk) 15:54, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

HAHAHA wtf people, are you smoking something legal?[edit]

Abbasids Dynasty 750 - 1258 (AD).PNG

Take this dreadful excuse of an image out of here. The Abbassid Caliphate never ruled so much land at all and in fact they never had control of North Africa or Spain which was under a splinter Ummayad Corduba Caliphate. Meanwhile also teh date is wrong because after the 10th century the rise of the Byzantine Empire and the Fatimid Caliphate meant that the Abbassids governed little other than modern day Iraq. Tourskin 06:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeh , i already noticed and wrote on Image talk:Abbasids Dynasty 750 - 1258 (AD).PNG , i think too much of coffee is the reason :)  A M M A R  20:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
In their opening years they did have sovereigny over Morocco and Spain, so the map somewhat accurately represents the Abbasid empire at its greatest extent. They lost Spain early on to Abdul Rahman I, and then later lost Morocco to Idris I after a failed revolt of Fakkh in the late 8th century, but that doesn't mean they didn't appoint governors there prior to that. Also, they ruled more territory in the east than is shown by that map. -- Slacker 02:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

i found this map showing the greatest extent to te abassid caliphate that is different than the pic currently used, so i think the pic used is misleading that the abassids did rule parts in north africa http://www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/hd/abba/hg_d_abba_d1map.jpg Mighty toad (talk) 00:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

To revive this discussion, regardless of what areas we consider to be actually ruled by the Abassids, this crappy map cuts off the Eastern edge of the territory, and while it claims they ruled Spain, cuts off most of that as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.229.6.166 (talk) 00:12, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
No, I'm not smoking. And this is not a forum. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 12:10, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I think we should use the map from Arabic wikipedia that has Hispania and north west Africa in dark green explaining that the those parts were lost at the caliphate's infancy and that the light green remained under its control for a long time.Qwertzy (talk) 01:24, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

In the "Today part of" in the Old country infobox, there is Andorra and Portugal but not Spain. Either believe the map given and remove the whole Iberian peninsula, or put them all (maybe France too, since it's highly improbable the empire extended exactly to Andorra not touching French territory) and correct the map.(talk) 22:10, 27 August 2013 (CET)

Independent Emirates rising in Abbasid Caliphate[edit]

This map is not accurate, many of the names mentioned are not clear and if you look them up you will not find any entry in either Wikipedia or google; example: Tulumid, Buyjid and Alijid; who are they? Someone needs to clarify this, probably correct the spelling (if they exist) so that we can know who they are. --Maha Odeh (talk) 13:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Tulumid is a typo (should read Tulunid). Buyjid means the Buyids and Alijid means Alids. It's possible the original map was done in another language where "j"="y". -- Slacker (talk) 12:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe we should find someone to correct this, does anyone have any idea how? --Maha Odeh (talk) 13:10, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
You could contact the person who apparently made the map: user:Arab League. -- Slacker (talk) 12:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The map is completely anachronistic. The map is actually helpful in that it summarises the areas of separate dominance very well, and given the complication of this issue such as summary is needed, but (for example) the Buyids took power in Baghdad a couple of decades after the caliphate seized Egypt back from the decadent Tulunids. Have emphasised this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.185.167.243 (talk) 11:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Abbasid flag[edit]

Was the Abbasid flag really just a black field, or is that just a placeholder? 71.57.90.83 (talk) 04:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Black was indeed the official color of the Abbasids (except for a brief period during Al-Ma'mun's reign when they switche to green). They fought under a black banner. -- Slacker (talk) 01:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

750 years without the Abbasids.[edit]

February 10th 2008 is the sad 750th anniversary of the fall of Baghdad and the demise of the Abbasid Empire established in 750. On February 10th 1258 the hordes of Mongol prince Hulagu sacked Baghdad. One the World's greatest city was destroyed up to a million people massacred. The Abbasid Empire was the largest Empire of its time. It stretched from the Atlantic Ocean to China. During 508 years it was ruled by 38 Caliphs of the Abbasid dynasty, direct descendants of the Prophet Abraham through the male line. 10 days after the fall of Baghdad the last Caliph Al-Mustasim perished the death of a martyr. Several of his sons fled to different countries. The Syrian line spread itself and gained importance. Emirs Ruslan and Iskander belong to it. 750 years have passed but Iraq is still in the paws of barbarians... Information service (talk) 07:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I've tagged this section with {{POV-section}} because the same editor that wrote it also made these edits (which are very POV). EnviroboyTalkCs 01:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Al-Bitar[edit]

Part of the Al-Bitar family of Syria is of Abbasi descent through the male line. Information service (talk) 07:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


Anniversary[edit]

The section in question smacks of NPOV and is written with very poor grammar and mechanical construction. Should it be removed entirely, or reformatted so it actually means something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.165.16 (talk) 19:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and have removed it. This is the text:

February 10th 2008 is the 750th anniversary of the fall of Baghdad and the demise of the Abbasid Empire established in 750. On February 10th 1258 the hordes of Mongol prince Hulagu sacked Baghdad, effectively dissolving the Abbasid Empire, the second largest Empire of the time [behind the Mongol Empire that displaced it]. It stretched from the Atlantic Ocean to China. During 508 years it was ruled by 38 Caliphs of the Abbasid dynasty, descendants of the Prophet Abraham through the male line. 10 days after the fall of Baghdad the last Caliph Al-Mustasim was massacred. Several of his sons fled to different countries. Emirs Ruslan and Iskander belong to the Syrian line of the descendants of Al-Mustasim.

Hex (❝?!❞) 14:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Persians[edit]

The quote expands on the idea that the Abbasid caliphs modeled their administration on that of the Sassanids. If it's not relevant to a certain section it can be moved to a different one. But I don't see why it should be deleted outright. Khoikhoi 08:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

fair enough now--MARVEL (talk) 10:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Seljuks[edit]

I don't get it...one source says the Seljuks simply took over Baghdad, another says they were allied with the Abbasids before taking over, and another says that the Mamluks were responsible for the empire's decline...which one is it?

--Skydude176 (talk) 21:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Abbasid persian mother quote[edit]

"One Abbasid caliph (whose mother was Persian) is even quoted as saying:"

Which abbasid caliph? Faro0485 (talk) 16:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

SARDINIA? CORSE? CRETE?[edit]

That map is wrong! Never arabs conquered or occupied those islands! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.10.248.30 (talk) 21:29, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The alleged fantastiqualness of Geber[edit]

Section Science boasts:

In particular, Jābir ibn Hayyān (Geber) is considered the "father of chemistry".

No, he's not. Maybe he was the father of alchemy, but referring to the article Jābir ibn Hayyān many of the discoveries attributed to him are dubious, and may alternatively be tracked to an anonymous Christian sphere alchemist using the name Geber for his books for the sound of it. Alchemy was a very secretive art, so it is very hard to track discoveries back to Geber or pseudo-Gebers.

In general one more generally accepted "father of chemistry" is Robert Boyle, who started it by describing experiments rejecting the alchemical symbolism and its mythical concepts in his The Sceptical Chymist. Later non-alchemical experimentalists and theoreticans like Lavoisier, Berzelius and John Dalton may also share this title.

Geber should (IMHO) be mentioned as part of the Islamic Golden Age, but downplayed, not as a scientist proper. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 12:23, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Either Geber or that Christian pseudo-Geber allegedly invented the destillation of alcohol. Which is culturally most likely? Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 12:27, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Please ignore that! (Me trying to be funny). Instead see: Talk:Alchemy and chemistry in medieval Islam. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 13:13, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
This material is similar to, or exact duplication of, other material that has failed verification, all added by a single editor, or written by that editor in other articles and copied here. See Jagged_85 RFC and related cleanup page for details. Some of the claims you've looked at have been specifically challenged and removed already in other articles. This article appears not to have been cleaned up yet. I would suggest removing all of the detail content on specific scientists, and write it as something like: 'Individuals in this period who advanced scientific understanding include Jābir ibn Hayyān, another linked name, etc.". This would leave the specific content to the linked articles, including Science in medieval Islam. Dialectric (talk) 13:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I have nowadays a habit of examining the history in articles regarding islam and science, but I refrained from mentioning that for the principle of reconciliation. In some areas there are numerous independent indications that islam really pioneered and paved way for the western renaissance, but chemistry is not one of them. The article of Jābir ibn Hayyān seems in a state of flux, but better than before, examining its history, it seems that it has been extensively proofread. As far as I can tell/guess, "Geber" was more like a tradition, whereupon lots of alchemical ideas were added by lots of people from the islamic and from the western christian sphere. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 07:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
I just read your links. Good links, thanks! Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 07:03, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 Done I fixed it by removing non-chemical (?) guys such as Roger Bacon, Newton and a couple of alleged praisers. The essense of the clause was originally correct, according to the books I had to borrow from the city library. The case you refer to is more of a general cleanup where a lot of valid contributions is outweighted by an annoyingly bad source usage, and lot's of imaginative interpretation concocts in the "bullocks class", to cite allude one of the detractors of aforementioned case. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 09:31, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Done with Jagged cleanup[edit]

I'm done with Jagged cleanup. I still think the technology section needs further verification, so I've tagged it with Expert verify. For example, mills were used extensively, but I'm not sure if there were steel mills in the modern sense, and I don't know how reliable the sources given are. --Merlinme (talk) 09:40, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Pretty good state now. I'll take an exact look at who really influenced Copernicus. As far as I can tell, he erected a new planetary model with fewer epicycles, but the only influences he really would need was to be Ptolemy's Almagest and some updated astronomical tables. There were Europeans to do that, maybe Regiomontanus, maybe some other person associated to the updated planetary tables of the high middle ages. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 17:21, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Found a ref for al-Tusi, Urdi and al-Shatir. The other influnces need additional refs. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 17:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Flag in infobox[edit]

The concept of rectangular national flags was unknown in Abbasid times, but black was the dynastic color of the Abbasids, so File:Black flag.svg could be put in the infobox (apparently something similar was done in the past, see section "Abbasid flag" above). However, File:Abbasid flag.png should be avoided, since there's no evidence that it's historical... AnonMoos (talk) 13:08, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Be WP:BOLD. You are almost certainly the person who knows most about the subject looking at the article at the moment. --Merlinme (talk) 08:04, 1 September 2011 (UTC)


Requested move[edit]

FYI: User:JCScaliger has been indef blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Pmanderson (blocked for another year for abusive sockpuppetry).
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move Mike Cline (talk) 12:13, 27 November 2011 (UTC)



Abbasid CaliphateAbbasid caliphate

Per WP:MOSCAPS ("Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization") and WP:TITLE, caliphate is a generic, common term, not a propriety or commercial term, so the article title should be downcased. Lowercase will match the formatting of related article titles. Tony (talk) 12:25, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Oppose. A specific state, hence a proper name. Some writers use the "Abbasid caliphate", or more often some closer transliteration (khalifat, for example), to refer to the office of caliph within the Abbasid state, but that is not the subject of this article. I would suggest the warning parallel of Roman empire, but the nom's edits suggest he may prefer that too. JCScaliger (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Oppose In theory, there is one "Caliphate" and should remain capitalized. In practice, many states (Umayyads of Cordoba, Fatimids of Egypt, Almohads of Morocco, etc.) absconded with the title and called themselves that. I guess the best point of comparison is with, say, the Pope - supposedly only one, but sometimes claimed by several. The Avignon Papacy is capitalized. Should that be also lowercased? Walrasiad (talk) 23:35, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
And to the Empire. In theory (up until 1804, at least) there was only one Empire; for some six centuries there were at least two, in Aachen and in Constantinople. JCScaliger (talk) 19:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Good call; no reason "papacy" should be capitalized there; books overwhelmingly agree. Dicklyon (talk) 05:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
One empire? There have been many empires and emperors - west roman, east roman, holy roman, bulgar, sassanid, mongol, etc. Caliph is a religious title, not a temporal one. It covers the community of all Muslims. Caliph is more akin to "Pope", and Caliphate to "Papacy". Abbasid is not a demonym, but a dynasty. Just happens to be some other dynasties have tried to claim that same title (akin to Roman vs. Avignon Popes). Walrasiad (talk) 02:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Support – classic over-capitalization should be fixed. Whether there's one or several, sources describing the one commonly use lower case, which is good evidence that capitalization is not "necessary" here; the threshold in MOS:CAPS is not met. Dicklyon (talk) 16:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
JCScaliger, must we then write the Indian State, not the Indian state (in the sense of governance)? That's a specific state, but why would you upcase it? Tony (talk) 08:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean. I have plenty of references which keep Caliphate capitalzed, especially when attached to the dynastic name. Caliphate is the name of the state. Abbasid a dynastic modifier. Like saying Tudor England or Hapsburg Spain. Walrasiad (talk) 16:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Are you saying that the dictionary definition and our article Caliphate are all wrong? Nobody denies that usage in sources is very mixed; that supports the conclusion that capitalization is not necessary. Dicklyon (talk) 04:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Ugh. That article is a mess. I don't agree with your deduction, as it depends very much on the context in which it is used. e.g. I can use "Roman Republic" as the proper name of a state, or "Roman republic" as a casual reference to the republic the Romans had. Similarly, I can use Abbasid Caliphate as the name of the state, or the Abbasid caliphate as a casual reference in compare and contrast mode. As it is used here, it is the proper name of an entity. Again, to emphasize, Abbasid is not a demonym, but a dynastic family, like the Tudors or Hapbsurgs. The proper name of the entity they ran is the Caliphate. It should remain capitalized. Walrasiad (talk) 19:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Power: The first Capital of the Abbasid Caliphate - Kufa or Damascus[edit]

Currently, the inset table on the right of the Wikipage states that the first capital of the Abassid Caliphate was Kufa (750-762), followed by Baghdad (762-836), then Samarra (836-892), then Baghdad again (892-1258).

In the article section headed "Power", however, the text currently asserts: "The first change the Abbasids made was to move the empire's capital from Damascus, in Syria, to Baghdad in Iraq." This is confusing. On the face of it, the assertion would appear to contradict the assertion about the capitals of the Abassid Caliphate in the table. Both assertions can't be right. The assertion in the text has no references to back it up. The reference at the end of the paragraph, currently #5, '^ a b Applied History Research Group, University of Calgary, "The Islamic World to 1600", Last accessed 30 October 2008' does not support the assertion.

Damascus was of course the capital of the Umayyad Caliphate until the fall of the Umayyads in 750. The Abbasids defeated the Umayyads at the Battle of the Zab on 25 January 750. Did the Abbasids then briefly occupy Damascus in 750? On the face of it, it seems plausible if only to have driven out the remnants of the Umayyad forces. But then what of Kufa? If the claim here is that the Abbasids' first capital in 750 was Damascus, and not Kufa, and that the Abbasids occupied Damascus for the next twelve years until 762 when the Abbasids moved their capital to Baghdad, then this is a claim that needs an inline citation in the text to support it.

Moreover, if Damascus, and not Kufa, was indeed the Abbasids' capital from 750 to 762, then of course the table would need to modified to remove the erroneous reference to Kufa, not least in order to make the text and the table consistent. 123.211.2.73 (talk) 10:49, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Why is the info box titled history of Iran?[edit]

Modern day Iran was only a part of the Abbasid Caliphate, why is the info box titled and links to the page discussing history of Iran?72.53.153.82 (talk) 03:45, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Population[edit]

Which year circa was this? Where's the source for the 20 million mark? //Gotipe (talk) 17:22, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

There isn't a source given for the 20 million figure, so it could easily be wrong. I'll add a citation needed. Do you have a sourced figure? --Merlinme (talk) 09:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Abbasid Khanate of Bastak[edit]

I am not sure of this section. All of my literature, including portions of the same article, point out that the end of the Abbasids occurred on 1517, with the death/captivity of Matawakhil III? I am not disputing the information only asking for a clarification. Well, maybe I am disputing it slightly, as I know I am no expert, but if it is correct (the section in question) and it is not just an extension of some vague connection to the abbasids then more information needs to be added connecting that last chapter, also the dual calendars really create confusion. speednat (talk) 21:43, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

More on the Abbasid Khanate of Bastak[edit]

The section on the Abbasid Khanate of Bastak has been added because it is a part of Abbasid history, and related to the history of the Caliphate. It is the Abbasid Caliphate of Cairo that ended in 1517; and the difference between "Caliphate" and "Khanate" should be emphasized here. The Abbasid Khanate of Bastak represents a later manifestation of Abbasid rule (under a new form, that of a "Khanate"). References in English to the Khans of Bastak are few so far, though there are sources that are still unpublished. Published English sources include Sykes' account of Southern Persia, the English translation of Tarikh-e Qajariyeh (Vol. II), and the recently published works of Willem Floor which include the following: The Persian Gulf: The Rise of the Gulf Arabs (2007), The Persian Gulf: The Rise and Fall of Bandar-e Lengeh (2010), and The Persian Gulf: Bandar Abbas, The Natural Trade Gateway of Southeast Iran (2011). The first of these (Willem Floor's books) makes occasional references to Shaikh Mohamed Khan Bastaki while the other two devote considerable sections to the history of Lengeh and Bandar Abbas under the Khans of Bastak. The primary sources for the Abbasid Khanate of Bastak are in Arabic and Farsi. They include the following: Tarikh-e Jahangiriyeh va Baniabbassian-e Bastak, Nader al-Bayan fi Dhikr Ansab Baniabbassian, Bastak va Jahangiriyeh, Bastak va Khalij, Tarikh-e Qajariyeh, Tarikh-e Lengeh, and others. More such sources are being published all the time.

The sources mentioned above can be consulted for more information. The section in the Wikipedia article has been kept brief (while giving enough information) to avoid devoting too much space to a later manifestation of Abbasid rule which is only one part of Abbasid history. With reference to the Hijri years of the section, where employed these derive directly from Arabic and Farsi sources (hence the use of Hijri). They have been retained for the sake of accuracy.

Bastak[edit]

So, did the last Khan have any sons or daughters? Are they still alive or did the dynasty finally come to a complete end? Is there a photograph of the guy? A photo would be totally cool....and as to the Caliph, did they kill his entire family in 1517 or are there any pretenders anywhere?Ericl (talk) 15:53, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Educational source[edit]

While looking for info about the Abbasid Revolution, I found this. There isn't much about the revolution in particular but there is a lot of good stuff about the Abbasids in general. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:11, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Cordoba paper mill[edit]

"Within 10 years, the Abbasids built another renowned paper mill in the Umayyad capital of Córdoba in Spain." The Umayyad kingdom in Spain called itself a Caliphate and did not acknowledge the political authority of the Abbasids in Baghdad. The Abbasids could not claim credit for anything that happened in Cordoba. JamesWim (talk) 11:49, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I've deleted it. The sentence was not referenced, and as you've observed, it didn't make a great deal of sense. In general if something is unreferenced and you have a good reason to believe it's wrong, I'd encourage you to be Wikipedia:BOLD and correct it. Wikipedia is only as good as its references; information which is unreferenced can be (and frequently is) complete rubbish, so don't worry about deleting inaccurate unreferenced material.
Occasionally you may also know that referenced material is incorrect, although that's rarer. If you can check the reference, or find a better referenced, then again, please be bold and correct the Wikipedia article. If it's a more complicated matter of giving Wikipedia:Undue weight to one source, or if you don't have access to a good reference source but suspect the Wikipedia information is wrong, then starting a discussion on the Talk page is a good idea. But if you know something is wrong don't hesitate to correct it. --Merlinme (talk) 16:08, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Large quotes?[edit]

I have been tidying up the reference sections and I have noticed that there are a lot of large quotes that may (or may not) be integral to the flow and quality of the article. As of now I have moved them to a separate footnote section to ease readability of the ref/note/footnotes. I personally feel that these quotes are generally not necessary as all they are doing is verifying the information alluded to by the reference (which is what the reference are for). This is not an article that I have, done a lot of work on and I feel that this point should probably be talked about before a major change (i.e. deleted) Thanks speednat (talk) 08:49, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

singing slave girls of the Abbasid court[edit]

I ran across a scholarly article that may be relevant for expanding this article: Richardson, Kristina. "Singing slave girls (qiyan) of the ‘Abbasid court in the ninth and tenth centuries." Children in Slavery through the Ages (2009): 105-118. http://muse.jhu.edu/books/9780821443392/9780821443392-12.pdf Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 15:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia contradicts itself[edit]

English and Swedish language editions of Wikipedia apparently have very different ideas of the Abbasid Caliphate's greatest extent. See the little map in green and white towards the top right of each of the two mentioned pages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasidkalifatet

To help English language Wikipedia editors, the map subtext in Swedish "Kalifatet vid dess största utbredning" translates to "The caliphate at its greatest extent". Which Wikipedia language version is correct? It ought to be corrected. Now the same in Swedish: Någon har fel. Vem? Hursomhelst bör det åtgärdas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.143.137.193 (talk) 11:11, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

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Persianate[edit]

At the same time the Arab conquerors of Iran were being Persianized, for although they were originally garrisoned as soldiers, they soon settled in the towns and cities, especially in Khurasan, where conquerors and subjects melded into a single Persianate society Canfield, Robert L. (2002). Turko-Persia in Historical Perspective. Cambridge University Press. p. 4.

Under the Abbasids, Persianate customs became the style of the ruling elite. Affecting the demeanor Sasanian Persian emperors, the Abbasids wore Persian clothing, instituted such Persian offices as vizier and executioner, established their new capital, and like the Achamenids and Sasanians erected grand palaces and supported artists and scholars who celebrated their rule. The Abbasid caliphate at its nadir was the climax of Persianate panopoly: they were  remote in a world of awesome luxury, walled off by an elaborate courtly eriquette whose casual word was obeyed like divine law  Canfield, Robert L. (2002). Turko-Persia in Historical Perspective. Cambridge University Press. p. 5.

It is very clear that the Arabs are influenced by Persian culture after the conquest of Persia. For this reason, As in other articles I did this addition. The reason why I have made this statement in defining the state, It is made in this way in some other articles.--212.252.99.122 (talk) 15:40, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, that's what I thought. The influence of Persian customs on the Abbasid ruling elite is broadly accepted and we can add a statement to that effect to the second paragraph, which already talks about Persian political influence. However, that's not the same as calling Abbasids "thoroughly Persianized in their culture" or describing the caliphate as a "Persianate empire". It looks like you didn't notice that the term "Persianate society" in the first quote is referring specifically to Khurasan. According to A History of Islamic Societies by Ira Lapidus, the Arabs who settled in Iran adopted the Persian language en masse and generally assimilated into the local Iranian society, which is quite different from what happened, e.g., in Baghdad. Eperoton (talk) 16:23, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Iranicaonline?[edit]

Per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/baghdad-iranian-connection-1-pr-Mongol is not a reliable source. Loaka1 (talk) 02:10, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Oh? Where?
BAGHDAD i. The Iranian Connection: Before the Mongol Invasion, was written by Hugh N. Kennedy, a medieval historian and academic. He specialises in the history of the early Islamic Middle East, Muslim Spain and the Crusades. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:14, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I did not notice that it was written by Hugh N. Kennedy, sorry. But the source says "While it is impossible to cite any direct influence, there were a number of examples of round cities from pre-islamic Persia which may have provided inspiration.", and not the direct "The round plan reflects pre-Islamic Persian urban design". Loaka1 (talk) 02:23, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

So then it needs to be re-phrased, "The round plan may reflect pre-Islamic Persian urban design". --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:27, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
That should work. But where is the consensus that Iranicaonline fails WP:RS? Doug Weller talk 17:57, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
I would say Iranicaonline, the web version of a large academic (but incomplete) encyclopedia, is very much an RS, without of course being infallible. We use it widely. I don't understand Loaka1's comments. Johnbod (talk) 18:33, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps one of you gentlement would like to instruct Loaka1 on the finer points of plagiarism and paraphrasing.
From Iranica:
  • "The most important feature of the architecture of early Baghdad was the celebrated round city, whose walls encircled the caliph’s official residence and the first great mosque. While it is impossible to cite any direct influence, there were a number of examples of round cities from pre-islamic Persia which may have provided inspiration.
From Loaka1's edit[1]:
  • "The most important feature of the architecture of early Baghdad was the celebrated round city, whose walls encircled the caliph’s official residence and the first great mosque. While it is impossible to cite any direct influence, there were a number of examples of round cities from pre-islamic Persia which may have provided inspiration."--Kansas Bear (talk) 19:46, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Calligraphy[edit]

Calligraphy is a fundamental element and one of the most highly regarded forms of Islamic Art. As such, I think there should be a section on it.♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ Talk 18:37, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Disputing "Abbasid Khanate of Bastak" - proposing removal or change[edit]

I am proposing the deletion or some drastic change of the "Abbasid Khanate of Bastak" due to the following objections:

1. Nearly all references in the section come from "Baniabbassian, M. (1960). Tarikh-e Jahangiriyeh va Baniabbassian-e Bastak (in Persian). Tehran." Judging by his last name, he appears to hail from the "Abbasi" family in Bastak which ruled this khanate. Information provided thus is subject to possible bias and I would suggest making it at least shorter and more concise

2. The "Abbasid Khanate of Bastak" is a real dynasty and khanate, yes. But as shown by sources provided by the Arabic article of the khanate (إمارة بستك العباسية), including the following:

- محمد أعظم؛ (العباسي)بني عباسيان بستكي (1993م). أحداث و وقائع و مشايخ بستك و خنج و لنجة و لار. البحرين، المنامة: مؤسسة الإمام للصحافة والطباعة والنشر.

  • The sources indicate that this "Abbasid khanate" in Bastak began in 1673 and ended in 1967. It did NOT begin with the arrival of Abbasid prince refugees in 1258. This provides ample time (415 years to be exact between 1258 to 1673) for someone to claim Abbasid descent for prestige and legitimacy as being kings descendants of great kings (the Abbasid caliphs), all while providing no real evidence except a genealogy tree that could be easily falsified.

Unlike the Abbasid caliphs in Cairo whose genealogy was checked by a group of Egyptian jurists around the time of the fall of the Abbasid dynasty. That is why the Al-Mustansir (Cairo) and his successor Al-Hakim I were accepted as Abbasid figureheads for Egypt. No such historically documented verification of the "Abbasids" of Bastak.

3. The section states the following:

"In 656 AH/1258 CE, the year of the fall of Baghdad, and following the sack of the city, a few surviving members of the Abbasid dynastic family led by the eldest amongst them, Ismail II son of Hamza son of Ahmed son of Mohamed,[nb 8] made their way into the region of Fars in Southern Persia."

"A few surviving members of the Abbasid dynastic family"???? "Made their way into the region of Fars in Southern Persia."????

Why would a number of Abbasids venture into PERSIA which was controlled by the Mongols whom are slaughtering every single known member of the Abbasid family? Especially in 1258 AD.... when Baghdad had just fell. It would make far more sense for these Abbasid princes to go west into Syria and Egypt like Al-Muntasir and Al-Hakim did, not deep into Mongol-controlled territory?

If the Mongols knew that a number of Abbasid princes fled into Iran, not even just one, then I don't doubt one bit that they'd rush to kill them off. Even if Bastak is in the mountains with a somewhat rough terrain, then the Mongols would besiege it like the besieged the Nizari Ismaili castles on the mountains.

4. The section instead of focusing one on dynasty could focus on several dynasties whom claim desecent from the Abbasids

- The dynasty of the Wadai Empire in Chad and Sudan which held power between 1501–1912 claimed descent from the Abbasids.

- The dynasty of the Bahawalpur (princely state) in India which ruled between 1802-1955 also claimed descent from the Abbasids.

Both with a similar origin story to the Bastak Abbasids and like the Bastak Abbasids, they offered no real evidence. I think the section would be far more interesting with the inclusion of these.

To surmise:

I believe this section is biased, written by a member of a deposed dynasty in southern Iran with no verified ties to the Abbasids and thus it should be either removed completely or amended significantly to show that this dynasty of khans merely claims descent from the Abbasids but there is no real historical evidence to suggest that they are descendants of Abbasid refugees. DunhamMyer (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:30, 15 August 2019 (UTC)